We admire Geisler and Mackenzie for their zeal in supporting what they believe, yet, still, even so, we are reminded of the words of St. Paul: “For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge” (Rm 10:2). There is no substitute for the Eucharist, so regardless of how holy a Protestant is living, a Catholic who worthily receives the Eucharist is universes ahead spiritually. When I look at the earliest traditions we have on the worship practices of the New Testament church (i.e., when I read the New Testament--our earliest source of information on all this), I don't see a single liturgical form to follow. We can't get a sacrificial priesthood in the New Covenant church. It's impossible. (Or is it?). As for the charge of “relativism,” that begs the question. In May, it published “Why I Became Muslim” by one Jacob Williams, a Brit who grew up Anglican and then converted to Islam. Con. So this text cannot be used to argue that the Bible doesn’t authorize a lexicon, as you seem to be arguing. By definition, each of these groups of Christians accept the evidence for the Resurrection but reject the particular claims of each of the other groups. Catholic Christians ask people in heaven to pray for them! These two “solas” are known, respectively, as the formal and material causes of the Reformation. Then you would have to show me the the current Roman liturgy is that liturgy. She will have to realize the Lutheran liturgy does not come from the Bible but rather from Catholic Tradition, but Luther said Catholic Tradition is not inspired. Thankfully, we have the infallible Church guided by the Holy Spirit as promised by Christ in the Gospel. Because the Bible is mostly *S*I*L*E*N*T* on what >>is to be done<< during Sunday Liturgy. Fair enough. I will try to get to Nick's question/comments at some point today as well.In Him,Joe, Hi Nick. Hello Revert. But God has not prescribed a particular liturgy for the church to follow." To be sure, there is imputation involved at the core...but quoting Jordan Cooper in "The Great Divide":...both (Lutheran and Reformed) affirm that justification is by faith alone, that is is a result of the imputation of Christ's alien righteousness, and that it is a legal term...However, for Luther, justification is not limited to a bare legal declaration, as in the case in the standard Reformed approach, but it is an efficacious declaration. In other words, you're assuming that if God cares about worship (and we both agree that He does), then He must have revealed a particular liturgical form (or forms) that He finds acceptable. The Jewish custom of reading Scripture was very much a structured/fixed lectionary, based on seasons/holidays/etc, so the default assumption should be the same for Christians carrying on the same (but now developed) Bible. The Lutheran church does not have a problem with tradition per se. But He has not revealed in what order they are to take place, how long they must take place, what language is to be used, what type of music is to be played (if any), what particular readings are to be read, whether the prayers are to be formal and/or extemporaneous, whether to raise hands or not, and if so, how high and wide to raise them, whether the Eucharist must be celebrated every time, whether the Lord's prayer is to be recited, whether a particular creed is to be recited, whether incense is optional, whether one has to fast ahead of time, and if so, the duration, whether a building other than a believers' house is acceptable, whether a collection is to be made, how much to be put in that collection (if it's required), whether a particular type of bread is to be used for communion, whether the wine has to have alcohol in it or not, when to sit, stand and/or kneel, whether any particular acclamations must be used, whether amplification is permissible, whether overhead projectors are acceptable, whether we can dress in jeans or not, etc. That quote explicitly distinguishes Sabbath (Saturday) from Lord's Day (Sunday). The facts we present below show that the tenets of this revolution and the Protestant religions based on … His prohibition against repetitious prayer should give us pause before we turn any prayer into a mechanical routine. But it does describe a range of activities that Christians did when they gathered to worship. You would have to first show me that it was Jesus'/Apostles' intention to lay out one form of liturgy for all time and all people. If Nick or you or anyone else can show me your liturgy from those sources, then I'd be far more inclined to entertaining the possibility that God did prescribe a particular form of worship after all. Protestants love to say Catholics worship incorrectly and claim it a very serious offence to God. Is it fully grown yet? Yet you do not dismiss them as "purely an invention of men." Nick: "There is no making up a liturgy in the classical Reformed mind."Right. That might not be a big deal to you, but that's only because you don't see the problem. What, for a Protestant, is dogma? Protestants, following Luther, tend to view the Church as a fundamentally invisible reality. This can include times of formal worship (what you’re calling “Liturgy”) and times of informal worship (prayer meetings, for example.) It's also important to note that Jesus did not create the Catholic Church, or any church...men did, after his death and resurrection. Sometimes the focus of our articles presuppose that our readership already possesses advanced knowledge of the points of dispute between Catholics and Protestants. That's certainly possible and would indeed be an answer...BUT the fact is the Bible reveals very little on what should be done for the Liturgy. For example, no musical instruments, only singing from the Psalms, etc. They wont have an answer. And this argument convinces (drum roll....) no one. You don't seem to have the Eucharist as a routine/core part of the Liturgy either, as you've not really mentioned it. And you can't. 9-10).I don't know about anyone else, but this doesn't even remotely sound like modern (Post Vatican II) Rome's more ecumenical approach to Protestants. Reason to be Catholic #1334542 -- We have all the right enemies. Then, based on that assumption, you go to the Bible and find that it is insufficient for the construction of the Liturgy. We are commanded to praise God. While at the same time this is not official dogma of the Roman church since it allows for a variety of beliefs on the atonement as long as one stays in the bounds of other established doctrine.It has always been difficult for me to grasp how one could not accept the Satisfaction aspect of the Atonement. This assertion attempts to negate the force of the Catholic argument that Protestantism is not a fitting expression of Christian unity, since Protestant sects contradict each other. We can't get a lot of things. That's a Golden Calf if I've ever seen one. We're not told. And that is transparently the *real* issue here. Non-Catholic Christians believe in the appearances of Samuel, Moses, and Elijah (1 Sa. Yea, apparently I do not see the problem with this. Answer this: Is it acceptable for someone to rearrange the Lutheran Liturgy however they please?Well, I guess it depends on what you mean. Anyone who has read any scholarly works by Protestant apologists knows how readily they turn to the venerable St. Augustine of Hippo to find support for their doctrines. Many things the church comes up with belong to non-revelatory tradition. >>The "revisions" to the Catholic Mass over the centuries, including the modern revisions, are not as substantial as people might think.<>"To say a person can worship as little or much as he wants, however he wants, is to ultimately say God doesn't care about worship, which is obviously ridiculous. But I don't think it's anything goes.>>Start with the question: What does the Bible tell you SPECIFICALLY to do during Sunday worship? The meaning of the celebration is expressed by the Word of God which is proclaimed and by the response of faith to it.1191 Song and music are closely connected with the liturgical action. St. John Paul II taught that Jesus experienced the separation caused by sin in His human nature, and that He had to do this in order to make reparation for our sins, which He took upon Himself out of love.The greatest thinker in the Church was St. Thomas Aquinas and he believed that Jesus took our sins upon Himself while on the Cross.But if he took our sins, and sins separate from God... Yea, the distinction between the two natures gets pretty involved I guess. That must be that as it may, you do n't understand how responding to! With its own rope never said * not * give `` a number of disagreements Protestants is not out. 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